How do you see the country?

"ImmoralMinority" (araimondo) 01/10/2017 at 11:51 • Filed to: None

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I tend to percieve the country generally moving left, likely due to living in California. Then I read this:

“Republicans control 33 governors’ offices and both houses in 25 states. Democrats totally control five states, down from seven; that’s the fewest since the Civil War, when there were only 34 states.”

And:

“Since [Obama] took office Democrats have lost 69 seats in the House of Representatives, 13 Senate seats and 12 governorships.”

“Republicans won 46 additional state legislative seats in November, to give them 4,170, just under 60 percent of the total. Fully 27 state legislative chambers have turned Republican during Obama’s reign. The GOP now controls 33 governors’ chairs and every chamber in the South, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! since the party’s founding in 1854"

When you spend time reading Blogs Formerly Known As Gawker Media, it is easy to believe that the Republican party is archaic and not representative of the people, but these numbers seem to say otherwise.

There is more going on here than Trump, who is by no means a mainstream Republican.

I voted for Obama twice, and Johnson this time. Although I lean left/libertarian, I feel no connection to the Democratic party. The people they hold up as progressive leaders ars old. Sanders is 75. Warren is 67. Who is on the bench?

I think history will be kind to Obama, certainly moreso than George W. I am curious to get past the handwringing to see how a Trump administration will actually govern. He may surprise us, he certainly has so far.

I am curious about how thise of you in other parts of the country see things. Sorry for the political post. Here is some 80s goodness tp lighten the mood.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 11:55

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I see New York City, a huge swathe of wasteland, LA (lol), and the shithole that Lincoln should have let go in 1861.

Jcarr > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/10/2017 at 11:57

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Howdy from the wasteland I guess. Hope you enjoy your food.

In a Mini; let them mock me as My Mini Countryman is higher than you > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/10/2017 at 11:58

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NYC is another Valley.

The Valley of the Ashes is watched by its silent overseer, the Eyes of Dr. T.J. Eckelburg....

bhtooefr > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 11:59

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Do keep in mind that there’s gerrymandering as well as inherent bias in the system towards the more rural areas.

That said, where I live, the prevailing attitudes are that brown and LGBT people should just fuck off and die already, basically...

I see the country polarizing, with the cities wanting to move forward, but the rural areas digging in, moving backwards. This isn’t helped by the Democratic party actively leaving the rural areas behind.

As far as who’s on the bench, there’s some younger people in the Bernie wing of the party - examples I can think of off the top of my head... Keith Ellison, who is running for DNC chair, is 53. Tulsi Gabbard is 35. Nina Turner is 49.

HammerheadFistpunch > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 12:00

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Leadership swing right and left depending on the bums in office. I.e. Republicans in charge? Get the bums out! Anyone but republicans!

Democrats in charge? etc.

With the exception of holdout states like Utah, California, etc. where they will generally vote one way or another. I think its important to note, however, that the color of the map doesn’t represent much in terms of policy and public sentiment as many republicans today are much MUCH more socially liberal than in years past and many democrats are much more financially conservative than the’ve been traditionally.

All in all, the “red vs blue” crap is exactly how we ended up where we are now; with orange in control. The trick is to move beyond party lines to issues and the ability to govern.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Jcarr 01/10/2017 at 12:02

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Hope you enjoy your... What do you people get to enjoy?

Panther Brown Tdi Volvo Shooting Brake Manual Miata RWD Wagon Stole HondaBro's Accord. > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 12:02

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If people vote only based on the -R by their name, why don’t liberals run as Republicans?

Jcarr > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/10/2017 at 12:04

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Life, same as you. Just in a different setting.

Jcarr > Panther Brown Tdi Volvo Shooting Brake Manual Miata RWD Wagon Stole HondaBro's Accord. 01/10/2017 at 12:06

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Why don’t conservatives run as Democrats?

DipodomysDeserti > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 12:06

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I definitely don’t see the US as moving towards the left. Maybe socially (as people become less religious), but definitely not politically. Our “liberals” would be considered conservatives in every other first world country, and we have no viable leftist party. The fact that our conservatives see people like Clinton and Obama as being leftwing extremists shows just how far to the right we are (their policies would be considered conservative in a lot of the first world). You Just now you referred to yourself as left/libertarian. That description would be seen as absurd in most of the world, as libertarians are seen as far right conservatives. Now, socialist libertarians are anarchists, but I don’t think that’s what you meant. However, in the US the description makes sense, as many “liberals” here hold libertarian beliefs. There’s definitely pockets of the country that continue to move left with the rest of the first world (such as in CA), but overall the nation as a whole remains very conservative.

I’m not sure how Trump has surprised anyone. He’s already started doing exactly what you should have predicted he would do (named big wig corporate guys, family members, and far right wingers to his cabinet). As far as winning, as someone who lives in one of the red areas, I called it last year. I was in Switzerland last summer, and a friend I was staying with brought up Trump, and thought it was hilarious he was running. I told him he was going to win, and he told me I’d had too many beers.

Panther Brown Tdi Volvo Shooting Brake Manual Miata RWD Wagon Stole HondaBro's Accord. > Jcarr 01/10/2017 at 12:06

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Cus in their states people don’t vote Democrat.

vondon302 > HammerheadFistpunch 01/10/2017 at 12:08

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Well said and I would like to subscibe to your newsletter.

Seriously though the biggest threat to the country is that about 50 percent of us doesn’t want to get along with the other 50 percent and our political “leaders” use that to stay in power.

Jcarr > Panther Brown Tdi Volvo Shooting Brake Manual Miata RWD Wagon Stole HondaBro's Accord. 01/10/2017 at 12:09

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Well then conservatives should just move to California or New York and run as Democrats. I’m sure it would work.

Chariotoflove > HammerheadFistpunch 01/10/2017 at 12:10

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Your last paragraph speaks to me. I think a big problem is the human tendency to want to be part of an “us”. And to have a proper “us”, you have to have a “them”. You’d think highly educated people would be escape this mob mentality, but apparently not.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 12:10

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As a member of the younger generation I feel there will be a shift as my generation gets older. It seems to me that my generation is definitely leaning towards the left. It seems to me that the consensus for people of my age is that the right is an archaic way of thinking (often fueled by the racist and derogatory comments made by the Trump campaign) which works against america’s future. Though it may simply be that we are at an age where we are still pushing against the ideas of the generations who came before us as a way to be rebellious and different (there is definitely a lot of head butting going on between millennials and the older generations).

Jcarr > vondon302 01/10/2017 at 12:11

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Yes, and people (on both sides) behaving like this toward the other side isn’t helping:

http://jezebel.com/lola-kirkes-fuck-paul-ryan-pin-was-the-best-accessory-a-1790978157

Chariotoflove > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 12:13

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Honest question: how do you see yourself as left/libertarian? Isn’t libertarian right of republican?

jimz > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 12:13

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Honestly I think it’s a function of the people you surround yourself with (or don’t.) in my experience people who are extroverted and enjoy living near lots of other people tend to be liberal. While people who want to keep mostly to themselves tend to be conservative. What’s happened is the two groups are increasingly becoming isolated from one another (physically moving apart.)

vondon302 > Jcarr 01/10/2017 at 12:19

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Exactly. What did that prove? That your edgy ? Give me a break and I can’t stand Paul Ryan.

Panther Brown Tdi Volvo Shooting Brake Manual Miata RWD Wagon Stole HondaBro's Accord. > Jcarr 01/10/2017 at 12:19

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I’m trying to say if a Republican ran on liberal ideas like single payer health care, rich paying their fair share, raising minimum wage etc. He or she might be more successful. You would be surprised of how bipartisan these issues are.

gmctavish needs more space > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 12:19

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From Canada, you’re all right wing, just varying degrees of it. Your democrats are similar to our Conservatives, but generally even farther right. Republicans......I don’t even know. They’re so far off the right end of our political spectrum it’s crazy.

Berang > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 12:22

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When the leadership is elected by a minority of voters instead of the majority, why would you expect the leadership to reflect the values of the voters?

crowmolly > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 01/10/2017 at 12:24

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I think some of that changes as you age. Some people who grew up in the 60's were rebellious and free-loving against the 50's establishment. As they got older a lot of that faded away. 90's kids had kind of the same thing- rebellious and grunge until they got older.

Kind of like how every generation thinks their music is the best and whatever is new is total shit.

spanfucker retire bitch > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 12:24

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He may surprise us, he certainly has so far.

The only thing he’s surprised me with so far is the sheer depth of indecency and ignorance he’s shown at every step of the way.

As far as state-level losses for Democrats are concerned, they basically stopped focusing and stopped providing as much funding as necessary for those elections. Especially at the local levels. Howard Dean had captured some pretty good success with his 50-state strategy, but then DWS took over, and Obama despite being the nominal head of the party now, basically just let her run the DNC how she saw fit. And...well...she was fucking awful. The opposite of the Midas touch basically.

I’m hopeful about Keith Ellison if he gets chosen for the job moving forward. You want a younger liberal firebrand, he’s certainly one.

Tazio, Count Fouroff > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 12:27

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Hey y’all, greetings from the Southeast!

Thank you for asking and thanks for your interest in, and for taking the step, to open/continue a dialogue. :)

How we see it?? Truthfully I can’t *actually* speak for anyone else and I live in an enclave of blue counties, but when a pic of that map first came to my attention it was with the caption, that must have been written by someone feeling at least a little the same way, and that struck a chord (apologies to the originator, and to those who’ve already seen this):

“...and the people in blue think the people in red are the ones living in a bubble”

bless their hearts

Berang > Jcarr 01/10/2017 at 12:28

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Hope you enjoy your twenty five billion dollars of government subsidies, anti-socialist red state farmers.

spanfucker retire bitch > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 01/10/2017 at 12:30

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Both statistically and historically though, every generation has been more liberal than the preceding one. I’m sure Millenials as a demographic will have a portion grow to be more conservative, but as a whole they’ll still be more liberal than the Gen-X’ers who came before us, who are still more liberal than the ones who came before them. And the Gen-Z’ers are already looking to be even more liberal in thinking than my generation.

However, what is also historically true, and this dates back for like a century or so, is that the younger you are, the less likely you are to vote. If Millenials and Gen-X’ers voted at the same rate and in the same numbers as the Baby Boomers, this election would have been an electoral slaughter. But they don’t, and the younger generation have never done so. I don’t see it changing in the future, so even if every successive generation is more liberal than the one before it, it’ll take decades to see it show up electorally.

Aaron M - MasoFiST > Tazio, Count Fouroff 01/10/2017 at 12:30

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None of the bubble talk really helps anyone, though...we as people have very narrow worldviews and should try to expand them, regardless of where we live.

Both living in Boston as well as spending time in western Pennsylvania and northern Indiana have taught me that aggressive suspicion of “those other people” overrides race, geography, and political affiliation.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 01/10/2017 at 12:31

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Libertarian is right of R on size of government and spending, but well left of R on military action and many social issues. I see it as the “live & let live” party.

https://www.lp.org/platform/

Berang > crowmolly 01/10/2017 at 12:31

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It’s weird, as soon as people get money they turn republican.

LongbowMkII > HammerheadFistpunch 01/10/2017 at 12:36

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How are republicans more socially liberal even relative to themselves?

spanfucker retire bitch > Tazio, Count Fouroff 01/10/2017 at 12:36

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I’m curious what you think land mass has to do with anything?

That little tagline isn’t nearly as clever as you think it is.

HammerheadFistpunch > LongbowMkII 01/10/2017 at 12:37

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by being less socially conservative.

LongbowMkII > HammerheadFistpunch 01/10/2017 at 12:40

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Abortion over 20 weeks, or without an ultrasound was just passed in my state. Conceal carry licensing is about to be overturned. The governor just acquired the power to pick the boards of all public universities.

There’s no live an let live in the modern Republican Party.

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/10/2017 at 12:42

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I guess I see that. It’s just that I am coming to see the left in the US as no longer actually being “liberal” on many social issues, but actually a lot more restrictive by imposing its view on the whole of society.

HammerheadFistpunch > LongbowMkII 01/10/2017 at 12:42

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in your state, with your elected officials, sure.

LongbowMkII > HammerheadFistpunch 01/10/2017 at 12:48

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Standard issue playbook. Right to work passed too. Trying to refuse the ACA(though that seems moot now) Noise about protection of religious freedom and bathrooms as well.

These guys aren’t R outliers. It’s what they do across the country.

Show me a republican that is promoting a socially liberal agenda.

Jcarr > Panther Brown Tdi Volvo Shooting Brake Manual Miata RWD Wagon Stole HondaBro's Accord. 01/10/2017 at 12:59

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Maybe to an extent, but I don’t think there is broad support from both sides to the same degree on those things.

The Dummy Gummy > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 13:00

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It’s easy to get lost in echo chambers. It is nothing against you. We all can/have gotten lost in them because it is nice to share the same sentiment with others but it definitely skews reality.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 13:01

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The only thing I would caution against here is concluding that the USA is red.

No, the majority of American land area is red. That does not mean the majority of American people are red.

The urban areas are blue, but that’s because there tend to be a lot more people in the blue areas. Urbanisation leads to liberal thought, although the SJW agenda against conservatism and rural folk can be tiresome and hypocritical.

Cities and metro areas grow because guess what? People want to live there for career opportunities (shocker, I know), and that is both a product and a cause of rural decay.

Off-topic: Have you spent some time in rural California? There is a healthy amount of racist nutjob going on out there.

Future next gen S2000 owner > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 13:11

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There seems to be a lot of left vs right and the right is bad and evil. Also, a large portion of the population feels forgotten or left out. As a whole, the coasts dominate the conversation and seem to forget that people actually live in the middle of the country.

I tend to lean right. Am I more liberal than my parents or grandparents? Definitely. Am I more conservative than my peers. Definitely.

That being said, I don’t see this those with whom I disagree as evil or bad people. The only way to move forward successfully is to agree to disagree and compromise. We have failed to understand why other people believe what they believe.

Both sides attempt to blame the other and can’t fathom why someone would believe something different.

AMC/Renauledge > Berang 01/10/2017 at 13:18

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Really? Like Warren Buffet, Tim Cook, Bill Gates, most of Hollywood, Silicon Valley, etc...

Weird. It’s almost like Republicans have this overly simplistic view of the world, or something...

AMC/Renauledge > spanfucker retire bitch 01/10/2017 at 13:20

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People/square mile makes for some interesting correlations.

this is not matt farah's foxbodymiata > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 13:24

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First of all, maps like that are highly misleading, as rural districts with low population density (Republican country) are much larger physically than dense urban blue areas. Plus, by dividing up into districts and giving each district to the majority (or even plurality) winner, many votes are discounted. A much more nuanced picture can be achieved in a few ways, for example by using shades of red, blue and purple to indicate percentage of votes, like this map of the 2016 general:

Even then, however, you still have the problem of a map based on geography. If you resize each district to represent how large it’s population is you get a map that looks like this:

This kind of map is much closer to accurately representing the 48% to 46% democratic popular vote win, but never seems to show up on TV. That’s probably partly because it would take more than ten seconds to explain, and partly because it doesn’t fit into the narrative.

I could also get into how a lot of the republican (specifically tea party) wins in the state house and governors mansions can be put down to highly effective surgical applications of money by a few private parties who figured out way before the democrats that if you actually want to get things done for your business you start locally. Not that many people actually pay attention to local elections, so a little super PAC money and some strategic buying of news outlets can make a big difference. You can even, apparently, get lots of people to vote against their own self interest by stirring up strong feelings about race, religion, patriotism, the good ol’ days, etc.

Yes the democrats have been getting their blue butts kicked in the states and even in congress, but I’d put that down to more of an institutional failure on the part of the Democratic Party to counter the well orchestrated, gerrymandering and voter suppression fueled astro-turf-roots Republican take over, than to how the general population thinks and would vote in a vacuum in general.

Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) > Future next gen S2000 owner 01/10/2017 at 13:45

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Have all my stars.

Berang > AMC/Renauledge 01/10/2017 at 13:52

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Names a few people, vs. basically every rich person.

ttyymmnn > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 13:54

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I would attribute much of that to Republicans rewriting the laws and gerrymandering their districts to stay in power and dilute the opposition vote. They’ve been doing this for years, and it doesn’t help that so many people who do not identify as Republican simply don’t vote. My only wish is that we get ourselves out of the coming national debacle when people finally wake up and realize how important it is to vote. I only hope that it won’t be too late, that the GOP and the right haven’t changed all the laws to keep them in power.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > this is not matt farah's foxbodymiata 01/10/2017 at 13:57

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All the stars, amen!

AMC/Renauledge > Berang 01/10/2017 at 13:58

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^Names literally no one. Ignores entire industries of people who are living contradictions to his oversimplified view of the world.

Berang > AMC/Renauledge 01/10/2017 at 14:02

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http://www.forbes.com/sites/katiasavchuk/2014/07/09/are-americas-richest-families-republicans-or-democrats/#5770e31a717e

Have fun.

Tazio, Count Fouroff > spanfucker retire bitch 01/10/2017 at 14:02

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idk it struck me as kind of a stark reminder that the wants and needs of those living crowded into a few densely-populated areas — honestly, a small fraction of the U.S. homeland —

can’t be assumed to be interchangeable with, and can even be opposed to, the wants and needs of everyone else living throughout the rest of the country.

About land mass...the way our country’s system of representation is set up and tabulated, as this election illustrates, geography *does* matter, too; (luckily for those in red regions).

AMC/Renauledge > Berang 01/10/2017 at 14:17

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So 44% of America’s 50 richest families are either Democrats or mixed Democrat/Republican.

In reviewing your original and subsequent comments, I see that what you wrote was a massively inaccurate and oversimplified render of this particular article.

Also, the 50 richest families in America is a very small, cherry picked sample.

“As soon as people get money they turn Republican” and showing me an article of the richest families are two very, very different things.

Thanks for playing.

Berang > AMC/Renauledge 01/10/2017 at 15:01

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I’m not really sure what you’re getting butthurt for, honestly.

AMC/Renauledge > Berang 01/10/2017 at 15:05

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Not butthurt. Just allergic to bullshit.

AntiSpeed > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 01/10/2017 at 15:13

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People become more conservative as they age. Keep in mind that when baby boomers were our age they created the sexual revolution. If it weren’t for them married couples in our sitcoms would still be shown sleeping in separate beds. But now they vote for politicians who say condoms are “too modern.”

I don’t doubt that millennials will follow the same pattern, although hopefully not as extreme. We’ll also butt heads with the next generations.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > AntiSpeed 01/10/2017 at 15:18

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Is it that you become more conservative as you age or is it that the ideas that were liberal back then are conservative now?

Berang > AMC/Renauledge 01/10/2017 at 15:35

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What’s bullshit about it?

AMC/Renauledge > Berang 01/10/2017 at 15:53

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I already answered that question.

AntiSpeed > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 01/10/2017 at 16:00

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Could be a little of both but I think it’s that you become more conservative. In my example they actively abandon the principles of their youth, but also I think it’s common that the older you get the less open you are to new ideas, and the less accepting you are of change.

Berang > AMC/Renauledge 01/10/2017 at 16:04

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You’re mad that people abandon their principles once they’ve got enough money to take care of themselves?

AMC/Renauledge > Berang 01/10/2017 at 16:11

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You haven’t established your claim at all, just cherry picked and oversimplified. It’s the Republican way!

(I’m a former Republican)

Also, the states with the lowest per capita income are all deep red.

Berang > AMC/Renauledge 01/10/2017 at 17:41

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It was a flippant comment, that is based in a true generalization. Holy shit.

AMC/Renauledge > Berang 01/10/2017 at 17:53

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Ah, “based on a true generalization.” Most bullshit is.

And so flippant, yet you believe it enough to support it with links that don’t actually support the comment.

U mad bro?

Berang > AMC/Renauledge 01/10/2017 at 18:04

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No. But I’m amused.

AMC/Renauledge > Berang 01/10/2017 at 18:32

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Well at least there’s that.

Jcarr > Future next gen S2000 owner 01/10/2017 at 18:43

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You’ve described me to a T. Well put.

ranwhenparked > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 19:18

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I’ve always thought of the United States as predominantly a center-right country.

The Compromiser > ImmoralMinority 01/10/2017 at 20:17

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I’m in Canada. We just hope things go ok for y’all for the next 4-8 years. We elected a haircut, so I’m not going to opine.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > ImmoralMinority 01/12/2017 at 00:31

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Overall i think things are improving regarding social issues. Most of the crap hassling lgbt rights is a shrinking group clasping their “leave it to beaver” world. at the same time i think the left needs to evaluate when to flip out and when to let something minor slide otherwise the SJW becomes self defeating. I think america is mostly purple.

i think the biggest issue is people not taking a step back and re-assessing their position or circumstance.

Midlde america or flyover country; “we feel forgotten”

these 7 states have just 250k more people than new jersey.

1/2 of the votes cast in the country were from just 160 counties.

“we need factories like in the 50's”: the reason we ad so many factories in the 50's is the US was only country to walk away from ww2 with our factories intact. and most of those factory jobs were dangerous and shitty.

what scares me the most is the blatant unashamed racism that I’ve heard from a few over the hill co-workers whether it be about mexicans or muslims. No the “a jew, irishman and a black guy walk into a bar” but straight up I hate mexicans, all muslims are terrorists, BLM are terrorists, etc”. Its something that i didn’t think I’d hear from strangers in my adult life.

what is strangest are people odd views. the owner of the company I work for, hug trump supporter, lives in a mil+ $ house, million dollar vacation home, 70k car, boat, goes on mexicans stealing jobs, and all these corrupt rich assholes in Washington and NY. I just want to scream you’re one of those rich assholes. you’re not even middle class in your fancy town.

At the same time I was a bbq and a 23 who just changed to a new job was complaiing “what am I a mexican” “well, you have skills, no education and no experience in your new job so if starting off at the bottom is a mexican in your world, then yes you are a mexican.”

I think one of the scariest thing is what happens when a bunch of disenfranchised voters feel betrayed, whether its cheeto jesus not giving up his business, rex in favor of TPP, or some GOP trying keep parts of ACA.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > ImmoralMinority 01/13/2017 at 21:45

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http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/07/why_donald_trump_s_pessimistic_worldview_resonates_with_republican_voters.html

interesting segment. think its why one demographic resonated with “hope and change” and not with MAGA resonating with another.

In the beginiing he talks about paranoia

then later on the issue of fundamentalist ideology, after joe goes on a rant of communism and capitalism. fundamentalism (30min in) is giving up rationalizing two competing arguments.  

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Future next gen S2000 owner 01/13/2017 at 21:56

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If you have some time JOe rogan had an interesting guest who discussed fundamentalism in shutting out thought, tribal behavior and differences between pessimistic and optimistic cultures. If you have an hour i put the video in my comment above.